Tag Archives: COL367

COL388: Entourage Feedback

col388In this episode of Cubs Out Loud, the guys take some time to look at some of your feedback! That’s right! Thanks to the listeners, the cubs are able to dedicate a whole episode to what you all wish to say to them.

Introduction Topics

What’s Going On?

  • Jeff: 3 Down, 21 to go
  • Damon: OT/Interview
  • Chester: End of roadtrip, soulsearching
  • Gary: Changing Seasons

Feedback:

Facebook Likes:

  • Jeffrey Boan

 

YouTube Subscribers:

  • BEAR Bigass

 

Bear Underground:

  • AVidahl: Grrr!

Twitter:

  • Mark L
  • Chris Bulk

Tumblr:

  • Friedballoonobject
  • Theangrybeaver11
  • Redpanda007
  • Cubziz
  • Noctis69
  • Bearhuggercub
  • Eduard9486

Weekly Topic

It’s a COL Entourage feedback show!

From BearUnderground.net

Troy007s
Pvt msg to Chester:
Cubs out loud is back. Great. Same cast or some new members? (I replied)
Followed by:
Welcome to the group! How did you come to get involved? There wasn’t much talk of the show lately on this site but enjoyed listening to all the guys get together and talk about things. Does the group ever meet in person for events?

chubnerdchaser

Posted 1 month ago re: COL380 Power Hour 4

This one was definitely worth the watch on YouTube. The shirtless eye candy wasn’t available on my podcast audio. ;P

chubnerdchaser

Posted 2 months ago re: COL374: Bear Origins

Highly recommend listening to at least 374 if you’re not a regular listener. It’s really good. I laughed, I cried, I got a semi. Thanks for recording it!

chubnerdchaser

Posted 3 months ago COL372: LTAS: The DL Deal

Really loved this episode! As someone who is one of the (mostly) D/L guys, it was good to hear more from the other side of the coin. Also really glad you touched on the type of D/L guys who aren’t “out” about being into chubs or bears, even if they’re otherwise out as gay. It’s one of my pet peeves!

Keep up the great work!

chubnerdchaser

Posted 4 months ago re: COL367 Bear Issues….?

Loved this episode – thanks!

Email from Tony B.

Hi guys,

Gary recently told me online that I was mentioned in the latest episode. I admit I hadn’t listened since his adventures at Claw, simply haven’t had time. I did subscribe to the Youtube channel, but didn’t get any further.

But the latest episode appears to not be working, so I listened to 383 and wanted to chime in.

Young Bears:

Here in St. Louis, myself and another bear, started a new type of bear club back in 2002. “The Bears of St. Louis” or BOSL for short. The main local bear club (Show Me Bears) is based out of a bar and I’d

wager 99% of its events are held at the bar. So we started our club with the intent of NOT being bar based. This was two-fold. First, there was no overlap with the existing club, so we wouldn’t “steal members”, but second, it could grab a new audience.

And it did.

We had a *LOT* of college-aged involvement which is rare of standard bear clubs.

Their participation was because a lot of school-based LGBT clubs are geared more towards visibility and (at the time) equal rights and not so much for individuals tastes. So as people interested in bears, they didn’t feel at home there. They weren’t ignored, but the posters didn’t have muscle bears or hairy men, they were gay icons and “pretty boys”, not the gruff kind of men they found interest in.

BUT… we also had one 16 year old attend a potluck of ours, WITH his father. Sadly he didn’t come back. Not because of anything wrong, per se. Basically his father was a bear, just a straight one, and so everyone chatted with him. The young guy felt distanced because not only was his father getting all the attention (worst thing that could happen for a youth) but he wasn’t getting anyone hitting on him, and he was frustrated. I explained that part of it was because his father hit a lot of people’s interests and that he was still “dangerous” being still too young for most guys to associate with too much. The father loved the fact that his expectations were wrong. He assumed we’d be stereotypical gays and instead found himself standing around a BBQ pit with a beer in hand talking about sports… with a couple who had been together for 10+ years. So I’m certain we helped him adjust a little better in regards to his son. 🙂

But with most consent laws being 17 or 18 (depending on state), I can see where the 18 year old is the line, but for the most part, every run I’ve been to has enforced a 21-year or older requirement on their applications. And while it sucks, a lot of times it is because of the venues that the events are hosted at. (Bars, hotels, van/buses, etc.)

There is a need for groups like this. Sadly our group fell apart as it wasn’t designed to be anything more than a social group, so there was no real power structure in place and by 2004, it was gone. Was an amazing two years though. 🙂

One thing I’ll mention that our group also had in participation… Recovering alcoholics.

I never anticipated that, but by not doing events at the bar and providing non-bar based activities, we had a lot of participation from people who had to avoid alcohol.

Another group it attracted and I half-expected this… Couples.

Couples don’t tend to hit the bars a lot as the constant barrage of flirting, drunken gropes, etc, can be a bit much. But for a non-sexualized bear club, there was a lot of couples interested in coming to events.

So there is a market for non-bar based clubs. I know that’s a diversion off the 18-21 year old topic, but I wanted to mention some other groups that get overlooked by the current organizations out there.

Bisexuality:

I like the phrase “Bi-Now, Gay-Later”, very cute.

So, I dated a Bisexual Poly man, in a gay monogamous relationship (which became a triad) and it ended roughly a year after we started. He is currently married to a woman. I get asked how I feel about that and my comment is always “The only thing I’m upset about is that I didn’t get a damned invite to the wedding!”

Sexuality is fluid. I know a bisexual man who loves skinny women with huge boobs and big men (presumeably with moobs). I found it fascinating to hear him describe it all. But it is who he is.

I myself identify as gay, but I have seen women who I’d have sex with… Probably just morbid curiosity, but I could. I think. Maybe. *shrug* No real interest in finding out though. (And don’t tell my mother, or it’ll rekindle her questions about when I’m going to have kids. Oi.)

Onto the topic of Leather/BDSM play spaces and Sex/Gender issues:

One thing to point out is that there’s an interesting duality here. Play spaces mean different things to different segments of the Leather/BDSM world.

For the pan-sexual world, sex is one aspect of play, but it isn’t an identifier. The BDSM acts are.

For the gay world, sex *IS* our defining trait. We are gay because we want man-on-man action. Thus it is a focus.

And to me, THAT is where the separation comes in. Pansexual BDSM is about the BDSM, not sex. Gay BDSM is about fetishized sex. Not solely and they both cross paths, but the “what gets people hot” is different.

50 Shades of Grey makes gay leathermen giggle with how “quaint” it is. But for women, it’s amazing. By the same token, women who watch gay BDSM videos, they want the raw animal nature of it, the power exchange, the testosterone dripping during the scene…

Can a crossover happen at an event? That gets complicated, especially when it comes to the law. Because straight sex can create children… how would an event handle that? But I’m sure it could happen (and probably does, just not publically known.)

As such, most of the pansexual events I’ve seen are BDSM only, sex back in your room. While most gay events are BDSM mainly, but sex might happen, so be prepared.

Keep in mind, this is no different than bars. How many straight bars have a “back room”? Yet that was a mainstay in the gay bar scene for decades (and still exists in some areas).

Forced bisexuality in BDSM:

I disagree with the topic brought up that a straight couple, the man might force the woman to have sex with another woman…

There is ALWAYS a choice in BDSM. Even slaves CAN say no. (They might not like the consequences, but they can.)

And remember, pansexual BDSM is rarely about sex and more about the BDSM itself. So yes, a Dom male may force a sub female to “assist” with another sub female, but rarely would he force them into sex (unless that was negotiated as a possibility, etc.) and frankly, most Dom males would much prefer something more along the lines of binding one while having sex with the other and forcing the other to watch, much as many Dom males with two male subs would… The BDSM aspect is the same either way.

The problem we see is that as gay men, we don’t distinguish sex from BDSM. And so we assume a BDSM act between one man and two women would be sexual, but it may not be. Just as we would see three men together and if the only activity that happened was bondage, we’d go “really? Just being tied up? No sex? Damn. What a waste.”

While the acts of BDSM are the same either way, one is more of sensuality and heightening arousal (pansexual) while the other (gay) is much more focused on the complete action from start to finish.

And again, is that fixed? Not at all. I’ve seen pansexual scenes that were to completion and I’ve been in gay scenes that involved no sex. But we tend to drift to categorize based on what we like… and we have to watch out for that assumption.

Just my thoughts.

Great episode and look forward to the next one. (Soooooo nervous about how I got brought up. Hehe…)

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COL372: LTAS: The DL Deal

COL372In this episode of Cubs Out Loud, it’s another Let’s Talk About Sex. We are joined again by our London based guest hosts, Shutter and Bruce, to talk about DL guys. From “str8” men playing with men to gay guys not wanting people to know who they’re shacking up with, the cubs spill the beans on their interest and disinterest with those who keep it on the down low. Make sure everybody knows about this show.

Introduction Topics

What’s Going On?

  • Jeff: Texas Summers are expensive and loud.
  • Damon: DENVER!!
  • Gary: Party and Politics
  • Bruce: Pride weekend in London
  • Chester: Next weekend, I’m heading to Belfast for the weekend to visit my friends Ryan (Belfastcubcake) and John

Weekly Topic

Let’s Talk About Sex: The DL Deal

  • Our experiences and thoughts on guys who hook-up on the down-low
  • Does it different from urban to rural?
  • And what of in other countries?
  • Does culture and religion play a factor?

Cooldown Topics

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COL369: Bear Issues Study Feedback

COL369In this episode of Cubs Out Loud, the cubs take some time to discuss some feedback they received from their recent “Bear Issues” episode. Listen in as they get some insight on the scientific process from a fan and doctoral student. Also, first world problems, gay desserts, and holding the door.

Introduction Topics

What’s Going On?

  • Jeff: What to do
  • Damon: June/July will be busy
  • Gary: Pride is tiring

Feedback:

Facebook Likes:

  • Matthew Evans
  • CJ Whitmer Kevin Morrison
  • Chris Dye

YouTube:

Subscribers:

  • 182evans
  • The BigBoy Project

Comment from The BigBoy Project: “yasss another bear channel on youtube, love the channel”

Bear Underground: chubnerdchaser

Weekly Topic

Bear Issues Study Feedback  – COL367 episode feedback for discussion

[From Facebook]

Randall: great episode…i have to agree with your points on this “study” that was conducted as i am sure several of us feel it is incomplete and highly inaccurate..sadly misinformation is such a dangerous thing and does not help our community at large or how others perceive our community. Again please keep up the good work and i liked the Down Low topic being brought up..i myself have a story about a straight guy and being his “secret sex” as i am sure most of us in the bear community do

 

[From Email]

Hi cubs!

I just finished listening to your podcast on bear issues. I also read the journals on Instinct and the Journal of Clinical Nursing. I have been following the scientific literature on bears and their health for some time now and was very excited to see that someone wrote a systematic review! But when I read the Instinct article I was concerned. I was also concerned when I heard your thoughts and heard that you had so many questions. If you allow me, I would like to express my opinion about this issue. This email is going to be long, but bear with me(pun completely intended :P); I’m going to try to make it worth your time.

First, let me tell you why I care about this. I am a doctoral student and my line of research is on health and health disparities (how individual or social characteristics may affect health). I have previously given lectures about the LGBT and bear communities to college students. I have also worked with and for the LGBT community. I also keep my colleagues and faculty aware of the specific health issues that minorities (LGBT, Hispanics, etc.) face. Also, I have published research and served as an independent reviewer of studies and reviews for scientific journals.

When I read the article on Instinct, my academic soul hurt so much. I recently found a great and funny video about this issue and I hope you enjoy it (I know, it is 20 minutes long, but it is sooooo worth it).

I hope I still have your attention after watching the video and would like to address your questions in an organized way so that you feel free to read as much as you can/want/like:

About studies and systematic reviews:  Individual studies may contradict each other in some or all aspects. This happens in social science, physics, chemistry, biology, and computer science. As you guys pointed out, the discrepancies could be because of who researchers surveyed or interviewed, where they surveyed them, and other methods. Systematic reviews are a way of bringing all the findings together, making sense of the information at a greater scale, finding patterns, suggesting why results differ, and suggesting improvement in research (and in this case also clinical practice). The usual audience of empirical studies, systematic reviews, and meta-analysis is other researchers or clinicians with similar training. The way other researchers and clinicians interpret these articles is different than someone without the training.

As an analogue, imagine researchers finding that Hispanics have a higher likelihood of having diabetes and hypertension (this is something that has been found repeatedly). I bet someone has interpreted this as “Hispanics are fat and lazy” or “Hispanics are hot heads.” But remember, this is not what the researchers have said. They have identified that Hispanics are at a greater risk for diabetes and hypertension, but the causes are not known (more of that in a bit). The same happened in the systematic review.

About the purpose of the systematic review: I guess it would be good to know the purpose of the systematic review was two-fold: 1) to address possible health disparities among people who identify as bears so that other researchers fine tune future research and 2) motivate other clinicians to improve the health of those who identify as bears. The purpose is not to criticize or stigmatize bears. It is to address the health needs of bears. The authors of the systematic review make that clear while the author of the article in Instinct did not.

About the people studies recruited: It is impossible to recruit every person from the populations we are interested in. Recruitment for studies like the ones mentioned in the review is usually self-selective. We want people to be willing to answer some questions and not everyone has the time or the willingness. The studies cited in the review included men who self-identified as bears through a survey, an interview, or any other form. Some of the studies compared men who identified as bears to other groups like straight men or gay men who did not identify as bears (usually asking a simple question like: “Do you identify as a bear?” or “How would you identify yourself” and providing options). Here is one of the descriptions from Manley, Levitt, and Mosher (2008).

“The study was advertised through e-mails sent to listservs serving the bear community and to bear community group leaders. These postings asked for volunteers to participate in a study that sought to understand the relationships, values, and beliefs of bear-identified men.”

Another study from Moskovitz and colleagues recruited gay men from Craigslist (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK), IML (Chicago, 2008) and PrideFest (Milwaukee, 2008). One of the studies was done in China! Still, the concern you guys expressed that the findings may not apply to all bears is true and the authors of the systematic review mention this as a limitation:

“The total number of research studies and the small sample size within those studies may not reflect the true experiences of the men who identify as Bears. Researchers should be very cautious when interpreting the results of the studies.”

About risky behavior: I admit that I do not like when someone uses the words “risky,” “unhealthy,” or “low self-esteem” in the same sentence as my different identities (gay, bear, Hispanic, researcher, graduate student, poor). However, knowing that I am at a higher risk for diabetes because I am Hispanic has given me the power to take action and prevent it from happening. As I have mentioned, this review has that purpose; letting others know where to look to prevent  bad things from happening. With this, let me show you an extract of the findings and then the recommendations from the review authors:

“When compared to other gay men, men who identified as Bears engaged in more diverse sexual acts like anilingus, fisting, asphyxiation, voyeurism, and exhibitionism (Moskowitz et al., 2013). Furthermore, men who identified as Bears were found to engage in UAS more often than other gay peer groups (Prestage et al., 2015; Willoughby et al., 2008).”

These sexual activities are characterized as “diverse” in the text not as perverse or wrong. Remember that guys who self-identify as bears were reporting these behaviors more often than other gay men (who do not identify as bears).

“Men who identified as Bears were found to engage in unsafe sexual activity, like UAS, anilingus, and fisting, more often than other gay men (Moskowitz et al., 2013; Willoughby et al., 2008). Healthcare providers can offer advice regarding protective measures to help decrease the chance of infection like the use of condoms and dental dams or receiving the hepatitis A vaccine. If a client engages in fisting, healthcare providers should teach clients the risks such as laceration or perforation of the rectum or colon, which can result in serious injury.”

We know that anal sex without a condom, anilingus, and fisting increase the chances of infections and injury in everyone. With the premise that men who identify as bears are reporting these behaviors more often than other groups, bears may face specific health needs that other groups may not. Even when people engage in fisting using as much caution as possible, fisting increases the risk of injury just like driving a car increases at speed limit increases your risk of injury compared to someone who does not drive a car or someone who drives very infrequently. The authors are not condemning or suggesting other clinicians to tell clients or patients to stop these activities. They are calling for clinicians to inform their patients about the risks. Patients can, then, decide what to do with the information.

About cause and effect: One of the issues that I remember from the podcast was the feeling that the authors of the review were implying that because we are bears all bears are unhealthy and have low self-esteem. The authors are not saying or implying that, but when articles like these are interpreted by other people who are not familiar with scientific writing, it could be interpreted in many ways. The systematic review and the articles it included are basically saying: “People who identify as bears report these characteristics more often or at higher rates than people who do not identify as bears.” In other words, researchers and clinicians read this as “people who identify as bears, on average, report higher BMI, more self-esteem issues, more masculinity traits, etc.” Other researchers usually know that studies like these cannot apply to everyone, but could be useful in identifying health needs. They also know the fact that being a bear does not cause lower self-esteem, higher masculinity, etc. A study answering that question would be impossible to do.

About BMI: Yes, BMI has a lot of flaws and has created unrealistic expectations and confusion. We cannot disregard that, time and time again, research has shown that higher BMIs usually categorized in the obese range are related to worse health outcomes especially if a sedentary lifestyle, smoking, excessive drinking, sleep problems, and other issues that go together are also present. The BMI is not a great measure of health, but it reflects other issues and works to take quick decisions when you are a doctor seeing a bunch of patients for 15 minutes at a time.

There is a lot that was left out from the Instinct article that is important to know. The language used in the systematic review was neutral and without bias against bears or gay individuals. It communicated a concern about potential and specific health needs of bears. The first author seems to identify as a bear (I did a quick search on google). The article recognizes that more research needs to be done to have a clearer picture about the health needs of bears. The review has been accepted for publication, but it is not the final product. Even though the results are unlikely to change, the suggestions and interpretations may be changed in the final version.

I hope I did not bore you too much with all this info. I did this because I care about these issues and I have been involved in research, clinical practice, and the LGBT community to offer a perspective you may have not had from any of these individual sources of information. If you have any comments or questions, I’d be happy to discuss them and answer them the best way possible.

Best,

Francisco Salgado-Garcia

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COL367: Bear Issues?

COL367In this episode of Cubs Out Loud, the guys take time to review a review of a study regarding the bear community. What are some of the risky behaviors this study states occur with bears? The cubs take time to discuss their opinions about the topic as well as another take on DL guys in the community.

Introduction Topics

What’s Going On?

  • Jeff: You gotta have goals
  • Damon: Learnin’ from the youngins
  • Gary: Getting caught up

Feedback:

Facebook:

  • AJ Lewis re: RPDR Finale/Season Ending discussion of Bob the Drag Queen being Viola Davis. From November 2014 –

 

Likes:

  • Mitch Bresett
  • Tj Wolf

YouTube:

COL365: Game Time #1 comment

  • Randall Stratton: aw..poor Gary…you are like that drunk chick in 40 year old virgin..you want some “fucking french toast”….LOL

Urbandictionary with Gary

  • Woke: Being Woke means being aware.. Knowing what’s going on in the community. (Relating to Racism and Social Injustice)

Person 1: Stop bringing racism into everything

Person 2 : Your clearly not woke

Weekly Topic

Bear Issues….? 

On the flip side:

Men on the DL w/in the Bear Community

Cooldown Topics

I’ll Tumbl For You:

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